"Getting ready for the Desktop issue #321" (was: Mandrake 9.0 POLY ARGO: Poio einai to provlhma?)

[fateswarm]

On Fri, Apr 04, 2003 at 10:32:09AM +0300, Σταμάτης Κεκές wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >koita ntaksi, sobara milontas, oso anikanh einai h microsoft na
> >prosferei ena pragmatika low level periballon ston xrhsth, sto opoio low
> >level sumperilambanetai kai h probolh tou idiou tou source pou
> >dhmiourgei to environment, exoun dwsei ola ta lefta sto na kanoun ena
> >leitourgiko pou exei para8irakia. me ta xronia eftase se ena epipedo
> >sta8erotitas se auto to tomea pou ksepernaei kata polu ta unix
> >leitourgika.
> >
> Genika stin M$ den metraei arnitika to oti einia closed source oso i 
> astatheia.
> Kai to oti para polles fores den yparxoun eksigiseis gia ta lathi pou 
> prokyptoun kai arketes fores den mporei na anaparagagei kaneis gia na 
> kanei debug. Sto linux kai sta alla unix like leitourgika exeis pliri 
> diafaneis gia to ti trexei ekeini ti stigmi kai vlepontas talogs na 
> katalaveis ti synevei. Kati pou mono apo ypotheseis mporeis na 
> katalaveis sta M$ Winblow$.
> Tora gia statherotita, hmmm poio einai to megalytero uptime pou exei 
> dei kaneis ?? MEgalytero apo 1 evdomada ? Megalytero apo ena mina ?? 
> Megalytero apo xrono ??
> Apo prosopiki mou peira eixa ena freebsd se enan prosopiko mou pelati 
> pou akoma kai simera doulevei kai exei uptime 572 meres! Gia Linux ligo 
> ligotero gyro stis 450 meres. Ara ean ena leitourgiko thelei reboot 
> kathe toso pos mporei na xaraktiristei stathero ??

milousa perissotero gia sta8erothta sto desktop auto ka8'eauto. den exei
shmasia an to linux kratisei se ena server crash. alla to idio to x
server crash.

> >
> >
> >alla, me dedomeno oti oi perissoteroi developers akoma kai xrhstes twn
> >unix leitourgikwn koitane perissotero to low level kai to terminal
> >environment para to desktop, den einai 8ema perissoterwn xrhmatwn oute
> >perissoterhs empeirias. apla, ean o kosmos twn unix leitourgikwn
> >apoktisei perissotero kosmo pou asxolitai me to desktop 8a ginoun
> >kalutera pragmata, eite an to sunolo twn an8rwpwn pou asxolountai ginei
> >megalutero, eite ean metatopistoun merikoi nyn concole users sto
> >desktop.
> >
> Sigoura tha symfoniso mazi sou alla omos ton teleytaio kairo sigoura 
> exoun ginei simantika vimata sto xoro tou desktop.
> >
> >
> >Epeidi poloi edo skeftontai oti einai anwfelo na metatopistoun console
> >users sto desktop na apanthsw oti yparxoun poloi sobaroi logoi gia na
> >sumbei auto. den einai mono pos blepeis ta email sou kai pou grafeis ti
> >c sou, einai kai ti akribos 8es na kaneis. an mia mera kapoios hardcore
> >console user mpei se mia omada pou ftiaxnei ena grafiko programma, opws
> >p.x. ena 3D CAD programma pou xwris X server 8a htan axrhsto h' apla
> >panasxhmo, 8a xriastei na perasei sto desktop. Ekei 8a dei pws exei
> >apaithseis opws exei kai se ka8e allo environment tou prosefere to
> >terminal.
> >
> >Episis, 8a me poun malaka edo poloi, alla de peirazei, oi closed source
> >etairies prepei na exoun ena sta8ero periballon anaptukshs ton
> >programmatwn tous. Gia na doume perissoteres megales etairies na
> >antimetopizoun to linux san platforma polhsewn tous 8a prepei kai na to
> >empisteuontai gia ta security kolpa tous alla kai na ais8anontai oti
> >exoun na kanoun me kati pou de 8a allaksei ragdaia se ena xrono, kai
> >epishs na kseroun oti auto pou bgazoun 8a apeu8in8ei sto 100% h' estw
> >sto 90% twn linux xrhstwn.
> >
> 
> Tora ethikses ena thema pou legetai security! Pos mporei kaneis na 
> theorisei ena systima asfales otan to idio tou to API tou epitrepei na 
> trexei agnostou fysis programmata transparently ( tetoia einai oi ioi ) 
> kai me periergi dikaiodosia gia operations me to hardware. Tha mou peis 
> oti kai sta *nix like OSes yparxoun trojans kai rootkits kai synexeia 
> anakalyptontai exploits alla omos o rythmos emfanisis ton ion kai 
> antistoixon trojans kai exploits gia tia $Winblow$ einia poly megalyteros.
> To oti den tha allazei ragdaia i M$ exei kratisei tin paradosi ton 2 
> eton ana leitourgiko apo oso exo dei apo ta 98 kai meta. To thema einai 
> omos to xaratsi pou tha prepei na plironei ena user eidika me ta XP pou 
> ta exoun kanei syndromitika pleon. Ayto den einia asymforo ?

legontas "ta security kolpa toys" enoousa apla ta licence kolpa tous.


> >Exoume gia paradeigma thn Alias Wavefront, pou ekane th polh sebasth
> >kinhsh na kukloforisei to Maya gia linux. H etairia auth den einai pekse
> >gelase, exei apo pisw oloklhrh omada pou grafei documendation. To
> >documendation pou grafoun - edo 8a parakseneutoun poloi - grafetai
> >parallhla gia windows kai linux, an diabaseis se windows ta docs tous
> >sunexos blepeis remarks gia linux, sa na mhn eftane auto, ksekinane
> >legontas pia einai ta command lines gia thn efarmogh - asxeta oti auta
> >isxioun kai se windows, de suni8izetai h xrhsh tous ekei.
> >
> >Par'olh th prospa8ia ekeinhs ths etairias pano sti linux platforma exoun
> >ena documendation team pou prepei na einai APSOGO gia na dikaiologisoun
> >th timh pou dinoun sto proion alla kai ena support team pou prepei na
> >einai APSOGO. 
> >
> >Anagkazontai omws na upostirizoun MONO ti "tade" ekdosh redhat mexri th
> >"dina" ekdosh redhat giati de mporoun na kanoun alliws. 8eloun na dwsoun
> >to apoluta katatopistiko support kai xwris na kseroun ep'akribos ta mesa
> >kai ta ekso mia dianomhs de mporoun na boithisoun toso swsta oste na
> >dikaiologoun allwste th timh tou proiontos.
> >
> Apla ypostirizoun ayti ti dianomi giati exei dokimastei to proion tous 
> se ayti kai isos na exei graftei kai se ayti ti ianomi me ti 
> sygkekrimeni version apo mia vivliothiki kai oxi kapoia neoteri i kapoia 
> palioteri.

epeidi mono se mia *prolabainoun* h' exoun to prosopiko na
upostririksoun. kai edo den einai "mas grafoun sta apauta tous", kammia
sxesh. gia ta windows exoun mia omada gia XP mia omada gia 98, h' mia
kai gia ta 2. Me th parousa katastash sto linux 8a 8elan mia omada gia
to ka8e distribution.

kai an bgaloume ekso ta microtera se xrhstes oxi "aksia", exoume redhat,
suse, mandrake kai debian. 4 support omades na apaitountai enanti 2 twn
windows (to "omades" mporei na metafrastei kai se doulia pou prepei na
kanei mia omada pou exei na ta kanei ola).

> >
> >Mesa se ola auta uparxei to dedomeno oti den einai "anagkaio kako" na
> >einai toso asta8es to desktop setup sto linux kai toso aparaithto
> >na einai phgh tou kakou to gegonos oti einai open source. Me apla logia,
> >den einai oute eu8inh twn etairiwn na einai open source oute na bgazoyn
> >binaries twn programmatwn tous ka8e 3is kai ligo epeidi h kuria mandrake
> >apofasise na balei ti tade beta eksosh twn X kai de ksero go ti allo. 
> >
> Beta den exoi dei kapoia stable version apo tis dianomes pou exo piasei 
> sta xeria mou ( RedHat, Debian, SuSE ) na vazei ektos ki an milas gia 
> beta version kai oxi gia stable. An valeis beta eisai at your own risk 
> my friend.

Tropos tou legein to beta, mporei na einai beta, mporei omws kai na
einai merika stable versions me diaforetikes apaitiseis kai bugs.

> >
> >
> >H unix koinothta exei na "geuetai" th xrhsh enos terminal environment
> >pou exei perasei 30 xronia dokimasiwn kai testing, ena desktop
> >environment pou mono ta teleutaia 5 xronia pou egine polu gnosto to
> >linux arxisan na to pernoun sobara kai na kanoun ali8ino bug testing. 
> >
> >Me ola auta sth mia meria, mh ksexname kai oles tis omades pou kanoun
> >pragmata akoma kai se GPL sto desktop periballon. Exoume omades pou
> >ftiaxnoun GPL cross platform 3d engines me platforma anaptikshs to linux
> >kai einai pio sta8ero to software se windows!
> >
> Yparxoyn omos kai efarmoges gia M$ kai Linux kai einai pio statheres oi 
> Linux version.
> Kai ayto pithanon na exei na kanei me 2 pragmata :
> 1) Poio leitourgiko se endiaferei perissotero
> 2) Se poio leitourgiko vlepeis na ginetai megalyteri xrisi aytou pou 
> parageis.

upoti8etai den kaneis diakriseis. koitas to programma sou kai bazeis to
porting se deuterh mira. to an to porting einai eukolh h' duskolh doulia
sizitame.

> >Giati; Giati ekei einai
> >2 ekdoseis na tous endiaferoun toulaxiston auth tin epoxh. To windos XP
> >kai to windos 98. Exoun ap'tin allh ena linux desktop environment pou
> >eksartatai apo:
> >- ti libraries gia DRM exei balei to ka8e distribution
> >- ti drivers edose to nvidia group
> >- ti <your library here> exei o ka8enas
> >- ti <other app here> exei o ka8enas
> >
> Edo mporei na pei o kataskeyastis oti ego thelo tin tade vivliothiki kai 
> tin tade kai den exo dokimasei neoteres i palioteres tis opoies mporeite 
> na xrisimopoiisete alla xoris na kseroume to apotelesma.
> Pragma pou exo dei se arketa paketa sta requirements pou dinoun oi 
> kataskeyastes ton.

e fusika:) alla, pesto ston ka8e user redhat, suse kai mandrake pou
perimenei apo to proto installation na einai ola OK. kai autoi oi
xrhstes den einai gia "petama". Ekeinoi oi xrhstes ka8orizoun ena polu
megalo meros ths anaptukshs mesw kai tis oikonomikhs alla kai tis h8ikhs
kai prakrikhs tous upostorikshs opws bug reports esto kai an den einai
toso "technical" fushs.

> >
> >
> >Se mia epoxh opou tora to linux exei arxisei na apoktaei pragmatikh
> >empeiria sto Desktop as mh geliomaste, oso omorfa kai an einai ta
> >para8irakia mas kai ta kde mas kai ta icewm mas, toso asta8h einai sto
> >blema tou sobarou desktop developer kai kuriws, twn closed source
> >etairiwn pou 8eloun mia sta8erh platforma na patisoun pano kai gia
> >kalutera proionta alla kai gia kalitero support.
> >
> Oxi alla otan kapoios exei ton pigaio kodika logika symvainoun kapoia 
> apo ta parakato pragmata:
> 
> 1) Den mporei na poulisei to proion an einai GPL i OpenSource i se 
> genikes grammes "free" pragma pou meionei to endiaferon ton software 
> houses mia pou theloun na exoun aytoi ton elegxo.

Mporei na poulisei GPL paketa opws kanoun toses dianomes allwste.

Eksalou DEN ti8etai 8ema. Mporoun kallista na einai closed source kai
auto einai sebasto. 

Prosopika, to open source einai EPI8IMITO, alla ta closed source tis
Autodesk, Alias Wavefront, Adobe, 8a htan episis polu apodekta sto xoro
mas.

Kati Autocad, 3d Studio max kai Photoshop exoun kratisei ekatommuria
xrhstes makria apo to Linux.

> 2) O xristis apoktaei prosvasi se neyralgika kommatia touolou paketou 
> kai mporei na krinei kalytera ti kai pos kai pote. Eno ta software 
> houses theloun tis patentes me to meros tous kai o xristis na exei ena 
> black box.

Koitakse, kseroume ta pleonekthmata tou open source. Tautoxrona kseroume
omws pws kai kalutera na exoume ena closed source Autocad para na
xrisimopoioumai Windows gia na to exoume.

> 3) Den mporei na apokrypsei algorithmou ktl ktl pou exoun 
> xrisimopoiithei kai ta copyrights fainontai. Kaneis den kseri ti 
> pragmatika symvainei mesa se ena black box ektos apo otn kataskeyasti 
> tou. Oi alloi apla to xrisimopoioun. Eno sto free fainontai ola. To 
> blackbox thelei ena kalo kondyli gia reverse engineering kai pou se 
> kapoies xores einia paranomo, alla kai akrivo kai ligoi to kanoun.
> 4) Den yparxoun privacy paraviaseis. Privacy paraviaseis, opos exei 
> anaferthei kai sto parelthon kanan kapoia leitourgika (XP) pou dinan 
> (kai isos na dinoun ) anafora ston kataskeyasti tous xoris tin egkrisi 
> tou xrisi. Alla omos oxi mono sta leitourgika alla kai se alla 
> programmata ( MediaPlayer ).

De katalabainw pws de mporei opws akribos kai sta windows ena aplo
closed source programma na kanei ta "security kolpakia" tou sto linux.

Den xriazetai na APAITOYME stous pantes na einai GPL. Auto einai
oneiriko kai la8os sth telikh. 

H aksia tou na exeis ena LEITOURGIKO kai OLOKLHROMENO programma se
closed source einai megaluterh apo to na exeis ena lipso kai
misodoulemeno open source.

Exeis entuposh ti doulia exoun pano tous programmata opws to Autocad kai
3D studio MAX? Auta ta programmata pernane tin prospa8ia enos kernel h'
estw enos GNOME. Den milame gia asteia.

H uparksh autwn twn programmatwn einai epi8imith sto linux kai tromera
xrhsimh.

O Linus Torvalds eksalou eipe "h proth fora pou pragmatika xarika 
siniditopoiiontas oti to Linux kanei epituxia htan otan h Oracle pou eipe
oti 8a bgalei thn Database ths gia Linux". 

> >Arga alla sta8era, "we're getting there" pantos, ego parameno
> >aisiodoksos. 
> >
> Ki ego parameno aisiodoksos.
> Stamatis

-fs