Yet Another Newbie needs help

Tue Oct 19 01:32:44 EEST 1999

Michalis Kabrianis <kabrianis at hellug.gr> writes:

> On 15-Oct-99 Panos Katsaloulis wrote:
> 
> > Anebainontas layers mporeis na ftaseis mexri to (polykatakriteo) GUI. Apla
> > einai 9ema se poio layer "bare9hke" o programmatisths na synexisei.
> 
> To layer sto opoio esy pou thes na matheis, tha stamatiseis, einai ayto pou
> den sou krybei tin pragmatikotita.

Oi programmatistes dev bariountai se "kanena" layer, apla bariountai se
opoiodnpote layer kai na einai, gi' auto kai monimws psaxnoun tropous na
kanoun ta pragmata etsi pou na mnv kavouv douleies epavalambavomeves,
mnxavikes, kok.  H "tempelia" einai *must* gia na matheis kalo programmatismo, 
giati mono tote tha ftiakseis to perl script pou 0a tupovei to /etc/passwd se
anthropinos-anagnosimi morfi kai den tha to kaneis me to xeri sto Vi.

Twra an o programmatistns protima to "gui" n to "cli" auta einai aforismoi pou 
kalo einai na tous ksexasoume kapoia stigmi.  Gia paradeigma, egw toulaxiston, 
protimo na diabazo ta mail mou se consola -- an kai otan uparxoun attachments
me grafika, ktl. to Netscape mou 'rxetai panta etsi pio eukolo.

> Giati gia na baleis sto resolv.conf tin grammi me tin IP tou server, prepei
> toulaxiston na katalabaineis ti kanei to DNS kai giati to xreiazetai
> auto.

Na exeis diabasei gia paradeigma ekeino to rnmadi to DNS-HOWTO, etsi gia to
gamoto tis upothesis, na deis giati tou tade filou sou tou "paizei" to #%^$ to
DNS ki esena de se thelei.  Ti dia'lo ratsistiko programma den exei ftiaxtei
akoma [ap' oso ksero diladi].

> Alliws, apla den tha paikseis mexri na to baleis. To na to baleis apo to
> GUI-like programma, odigei se erwtiseis tou styl: Me IP blepw, me onoma den
> blepw, ti ftaiei....

Axmmm, na deis sto *.irc.gr ti ginetai me akoma pio 'xazes' erotiseis (kai ti
leksi 'xazes' tin exw se eisagogika gia na min mou poune twra kapoioi: den
uparxoun xazes erotiseis, blah blah blah).  Einai koinos topos pws to na
luseis kapoio problima apaitei prwta na katavonseis oti uparxei problnma, meta 
va breis kapws pou uparxei to problnma, kai bour gia tn lusn tou...  Twra, av
dev exeis idea ti eivai to DNS kai giati xrnsimopoieitai, siga mnv sou paei
sto vou va rwtnseis "exw eva problnma me to DNS mou".  Bebaia, akribws gia
auto kai den diabazei kaneis to DNS-HOWTO prin rwtisei sti lista.  To 'xazo'
pou ennoousa parapano den einai na rotiseis auto akribos, alla to na epimeneis 
meta oti to diabases olo to HOWTO, to katalabes, peirakses to resolv.conf kai
eksakolouthei na mi sou "paizei"... ekei apla apantas "eisai sigouros oti to
katalabes auto pou diabases?" den mporeis na kaneis tipota allo.

> > Fysika kai to na peirazeis ta Makefile exeis ametrhth dynatothta epembashs,
> > alla einai kati parapanw apo axrhsto kai epipono XWRIS LOGO.
> 
> ... oxi, den exeis ametriti dynatotita epembasis, exeis akribws tin idia pou
> exeis kai apo ta GUIs

Yeap, to makefile den exei kamia parapano dunatotita apo to /menuconfig/, apla 
to Makefile mporeis na to peirakseis kai me ena VI egkatestimeno, na mi sou po 
diladi gia kati trelles epoxes pou peirazame to configuration me /bin/ed kai
frikseis.  Oxi de thelo na peirazoun alloi to configuration tou kernel tous me 
ton /bin/ed alla toulaxiston na min pagonoun kai mono stin idea oti den tous
douleuei to `menuconfig' giati allaksane version stin curses kai kollane ekei
pera sa xaza giati de kseroun (kai polu perissotero den theloun na mathoun)
allo tropo na orisoun ti 8a upostirizei to kernel tous.  Ki edw, opws kai
pantou allou, h gnwsi einai dunami -- dunami gia na antimetopizeis diafora...

> > Giati esy 3EREIS OLA osa exoyn sxesh me ayto poy kaneis; Giati bazeis
> > kapoia parametro 'h kaneis kapoia dhlwsh se ena arxeio; Ti kanei
> > PRAGMATIKA ayto;
> 
> Profanws an sou pw nai, den tha me pitepseis, opote den exei noima na sou
> apantisw :-)

Twra an sou po oti ki ego pou den exo yast kai peirazo oles tis `parametrous'
opws les esu "bazontas dhlwseis se arxeia", kai ta teleutaia N xronia ksero ti 
kano kai giati to kano, tha to pistepseis h tha arxiseis ta "nai, alla esu
exeis kai N+M xronia pou douleueis se Unix, ktl." ?

Kai pisteueis oti, akoma kai an tou peis kapoiou "kanontas auto me to
LinuxConf 8a ta katafereis, giati ... auto kanei to alpha ... ki ekeino to
beta", meta apo duo bdomades 8a 8umatai ti akolou8ouse ekeino to 'giati...'?

Otan apoktas gnoseis polu eukola, diladi me to styl 'kane auto kai 8a paiksei'
ektos apo to oti den tis mathaineis pragmatika, teineis na akoloutheis meta
kapoia sugkekrimena monopatia san tuflosourti (lege me uninstall-&-install pou
teinei na ginei n 'ludia lithos' tis epilusis problimatwn ston kosmo twn
upologistwn -- teleiws frikh).  Enw anti8eta, otan mathaineis siga-siga, me
ligo parapano kopo (oux, kakes lekseis: 'kopo' eipa twra) tote kapoia pragmata
sou menoun pio kala.

> H mporeis endiamesa na rwtiseis opoiondipote grafista, pou blepei na tou
> trwne tin douleia paidakia pou kseroun to Corel kai doulevoun me 120.000 to
> mina (kai oxi, to na ksereis to corel DEN se kanei grafista).

Xm, kai na min anafero tora to pws mporoun na douleuoun se tomeis sxetikous me 
upologistes atoma pou kamia sxesi den exoun me to 'athlima', gia na gino ligo
pio eirwnikos apo oso einai politically-correct.  Kai kala kapoios pou exei
faei ta niata tou ki emathe duo pragmata, autos de xreiazetai na exei ptuxio
mixanikou upologistwn gia na ergastei -- h peira tou fainetai apo ena aplo
interview ki apo tin proigoumeni douleia tou sinithos.  Alla otan blepo atoma
pou molis kai kseroun pos na stisoun ena RedHat na einai ypeythynoi gia to
system administration se diolou eukatafronita posta, xm... syfiliazomai kapos, 
eidika otan me arxizoun stis erotiseis tou styl "to yast mporei na prosthesei
paketa meta to telos tis egkatastasis?"

Ti na pw?  Na tou pw "mathe ta ergaleia sou"?  Den exei vonma pisteuw.  Eidika 
otav eisai apevavti apo atomo pou thelei "na kanei apla tn douleia tou" -- to
allo teleiws frikto klise pou mou kavei ta autia va povave kai movo pou to
akouw.  Giati av theleis apla va kaveis tn douleia sou, kav' tnv opws ksereis
paidi mou kai min agwnizesai tautoxrona na matheis kai linux :/

> Kai pistevw oti mono i gnwsi sou dinei tin dynatotita na xrisimopoiiseis
> pragmatika ayto pou xreiazesai.

Geia sto stoma sou Mixali. Pes ta, giati bariemai na ta lew kathe fora pou
anoigei sizitisi peri user-friendliness, gui, kai de summazeuetai...

> To swsto tha itan, etsi opws to les (kai se kamia periptwsi den symfwnw) na
> ftiaxtei mia -experts- kai mia -newbies-. To opoio apla diaiwnizei to
> problima [snip] anti na to lynei.

Epeidi i lista einai gia erotiseis genikou skopou, einai asumforo na ginei
kati tetoio, akoma kai me to montelo twv mailing-lists tou FreeBSD, pou
uparxoun oi listes:

	* freebsd-newbies
	* freebsd-questions
	* freebsd-hackers

opou stin proti pane sxetika liga mails, kurios tou styl 'pws stino BSD', stin 
deuteri pane ekatommuria erotiseis me analoga se arithmo themata, kai stin
alli (pou einai moderated kai low-traffic) sizitane themata pio advanced, opws 
gia paradeigma ti na ginei me to tade kernel-bug, kok.

Pisteuo oti epeidi skopos tis linux-greek-users den einai na kanei development 
kapoiou sugkekrimenou pragmatos, den exei vonma va ftiaksoume mia lista gia
experts, eidika an skeftei kaneis oti autoi pou kseroun duo pragmata sinithos
kseroun (an kollisoun) kai poios apo tous upoloipous me kapoies gnwseis mporei 
na bon0nsei kai ena aplo proswpiko mail arkei.

> Alla kai na ginei, poios tha apantaei an fygoun apo ti lista osoi kseroun 2
> pragmata?

Kaneis. profanws... ase pou den tha uparxei kai to taktiko keepalive psarotiko 
mail tou Christou na mas kanei na gelasoume kapws :P

> Oso de gia to oti i lista arxizei na xanei, e oxi kai na thewrithoume
> malakes pou dinoume pragmatikes apantiseis anti gia apantiseis tou typou
> "klits klits klits". Nomizw pia oti ayto parapaei. An sas enoxloun toso poly
> ta mails mou (kai allwn me to idio styl apantisewn fantazomai) yparxoun kai
> ta filtra.

Aplo... stise ton XEmacs me Gnus gia na diabazeis mail, nomizw uparxei se RPM
se ola ta teleutaia SuSE.

	    -=>) Kai stinetai kai mesa apo YAST, wow! (<=-

Meta, grafeis ligh Emacs-Lisp sto ~/.xemacs arxeio, kati san:

	(gnus-kill "From" "mkabrian")
	(gnus-kill "From" "keramida")

ki eisai hdh etoimos gia na diabaseis ta mail sou xoris pote, ma POTE, na deis 
kan sti lista ta mail sugkekrimenwn 'enoxlitikwn' linuxadwv, pou exoun tin
tasi na apantane "me to VI allazeis AUTO, se EKEINO to arxeio, stelneis TO
TADE signal ston DEINA daemona, ki eisai etoimos".

-- 
Giorgos Keramidas, <keramida at ceid.upatras.gr>
"What we have to do, we learn by doing." [Aristotle]
--
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