Paei sth Boylh me nomosxedio h symfwnia me th microsoft toy 2006

[Christos Ricudis]

Nick Kossifidis wrote:
>> Exoume thn kyrwsh se nomo8etiko epipedo mias prokatarktikhs strathgikhs
>> symfwnias metaksy ellhnikou dhmosiou kai Microsoft.
>>
>> Ta dedomena einai ta ekshs :
>>
>> 1) Kai na mporousame na poume o,tidhpote gia th symfwnia, mexri na ginei
>> nomos tou kratous, o,ti poume - kai emeis kai aytoi - einai panw katw
>> logia tou aera.
>>     
>
> Giati einai logia tou aera vre Xristo ? afou prin ginei nomos exoume
> ousiastika perithorio paremvashs, oti exoume na poume prepei na to
> poume twra.
>   


Pws akribws exoume peri8wrio parembashs, Niko ?

Pws stoixeio8eteitai kai ti akribws morfh exei typika to "dikaiwma 
parembashs toy polith / twn forewn se katate8eimeno pros pshfish apo th 
boulh sxedio nomou" ?

Ektos an thn parembash thn ennooume sth morfh tou na moirasoume ubuntia 
eksw apo th boulh mpas kai sygkinh8ei kanena peristeri.

Prosoxh, de lew oti kakws leme oti leme, h oti den exei nohma mia 
ekstrateia enhmerwshs tou koinou h twn bouleytwn h twn policy-makers h 
opoioudhpote allou sxetika me tis apopseis mas - lew oti an 8eloume na 
paremboume, prepei na paremboume ousiastika, kai ousiastikh dynatothta 
parembashs se SXEDIO nomou nomizw oti den yfistatai.


>> 2) H symfwnia anaferetai ws "mh-desmeytikh". Gnwrizoume ti shmainei ayto
>> h ti synepagetai? (emperistatwmenes nomika apopseis, oxi th gnwmh tou
>> ka8enos).
>>     
>
> Mh desmeytikh shmainei oti den desmeuetai kapoio ap ta merh (sthn
> periptwsh ayth o Alogskoufhs anaferetai profanws sto kratos) na
> ylopoihsei kapoio kommati ths symfwnias. Ayto den isxyei afou h
> symfwnia desmeuei to kratos (par. 4) na agorasei 70.000 adeies xrhshs
> logismikou MS me tous antistoixous ypologistes kai malista mexri to
> telos tou 2008 (exei kai xroniko periorismo dld).
>   


Mporei kapoios na apanthsei ws pros th nomikh ennoia ths desmeyshs? 
Yparxei mia antifash edw pera, me mia "mh-desmeytikh" symfwnia (h mhpws 
prokeitai gia "mh-apokleistikh"? allo desmeysh, allo apokleismos) na 
"desmeyei" to dhmosio. H apopsh sou h h dikia mou apopsh den exoun 
kammia shmasia.  Mporei na apanthsei kapoios poy gnwrizei to 8ema?


>> Oson afora ta zhthmata twn adeiwn logismikou :
>>
>> 1) Anaferontai se yfistamenes ypodomes, h mellontikes egkatastaseis?
>> Profanws to ellhniko dhmosio de mporei na pei "exoume 20.000 ypologistes
>> me unlicensed Microsoft software". Proswpika pisteyw oti ean to ellhniko
>> dhmosio xrhsimopoihse epi tria xronia 35 xiliades kopies tou Microsoft
>> BOB xwris adeia xrhshs, tote poly kala 8a kanei na tis plhrwsei th
>> Microsoft.
>>
>>     
>
> Sth symvash anaferetai kai h promhtheia ypologistwn mazi me tis adeies
> xrhshs, ara milane gia nees egatastaseis opws to katalavainw egw
> toulaxiston.
>   


Sth symbash anaferetai KAI h promh8eia ypologistwn mazi me tis adeies 
xrhshs, oxi MONO h promh8eia ypologistwn mazi me adeies xrhshs, ektos an 
emena moy ksefyge kati otan th diabasa. Devil is in the details.


>> 2) Oson afora tis mellontikes egkatastaseis. Exoume enallaktikh lysh?
>> Mporoume na proballoume me peistika epixeirhmata (OXI links sto
>> slashdot) oti exoume enallaktikh lysh? Yparxoun epishma reports pou
>> aforoun th xrhsh anoixtou logismikou sth dhmosia dioikhsh, se e8niko kai
>> eyrwpaiko epipedo, wste na antiparatax8oun ws epixeirhmatologia? Nomizw
>> oti yparxoun, kapou eixa dei merika. Yparxoun analyseis skopimothtas,
>> kostous/ofelous, ktl?
>>     
>
> Yparxoun meletes se eyrwpaiko epipedo ap' oso gnwrizw (toulaxiston gia
> tis xwres pou xrhsimopoioun ellak profanws yparxoun) alla den kserw an
> exei ginei kati sta plaisia tou ellhnikou dhmosiou, to thema einai oti
> h kyvernhsh ofeilei na kanei meletes gia kathe enalaktikh lysh, poso
> mallon otan alles xwres akolouthoun paromoies praktikes + kai sth xwra
> mas se sxetika erga (anefera ta kep ws paradeigma epeidh tyxainei na
> to gnwrizw)  sthrizontai (akoma kai tmhmatika) se ellak.
>   


Giati to "ofeilei" h kybernhsh (h to kratos, h to dhmosio - allo 
kybernhsh, allo kratos, allo dhmosio, mh mperdeyoume tis lekseis) na 
kanei "meletes gia ka8e enallaktikh lysh", epeidh to les esy ki egw?

Poy stoixeio8eteitai nomika h ofeilh ths kybernhshs, kratous, dhmosiou, 
na kanei meleth skopimothtas gia to sygkekrimeno zhthma sto sygkekrimeno 
stadio poy brisketai, kai na labei sth meleth skopimothtas ypopshn ths 
symperasmata pou exoun eksax8ei se alles eyrwpaikes xwres?

De rwtaw gia na pw "den stoixeio8eteitai". Rwtaw epeidh mporei na 
stoixeio8eteitai kai na mhn to gnwrizw.


>> 3) Pws mporoume na proballoume to epixeirhma tou kostous? EXOUME
>> emperistatwmenes meletes se e8niko/eyrwpaiko epipedo? H diatypwsh "to
>> open source logismiko einai tzaaaaaampaaaaaa" einai yperaplousteytikh.
>>     
>
> Pistevw pws den einai to thema tou kwstous pou prepei na anadeiksoume
> toso, oso to thema ths dialeitourgikothtas kai ths poiothtas
> yphresiwn. Gia na milhsoume gia to thema tou kostous prepei profanws
> na exoume oikonomikes meletes klp, wstoso ayto pou mporoume eykola na
> poume einai oti toulaxiston sthn periptwsh tou ellak den plhrwneis
> adeies xrhshs, dhladh exeis mikrotero kostos ana ypologisth (to
> support/ekpaideysh to plhrwneis kai stis dyo periptwseis). To kostos
> gia to migration einai sxetiko, px. se web-based efarmoges (ekei
> teinoun siga siga) den yparxei kostos ekpaideyshs, se alles efarmoges
> sigoura yparxei alla ki edw mporoume na anaferoume to ekshs
> epixeirhma, oti ap th stigmh pou ekpaideytoun panw se ellak, den tha
> xreiastei na perasoun epanekpaideysh toso syxna afou oi efarmoges
> ellak einai panta backwards combatible (yparxei h egyhsh dhladh oti to
> programma pou exoun tha einai panta supported -an kai ayto mpazei
> ligo). Xrhsimo tha htan na vroume pistopoihseis antistoixes tou ECDL
> gia ellak (exei h redhat nomizw kapoies) gia na milisoume gia thn
> ekpaideysh poio sygekrimena.
>   


Se web-based efarmoges den yparxoun migration costs kai kostos 
ekpaideyshs ? Pou to basizeis ayto ?

"Oi efarmoges ellak einai panta backwards compatible" ?

Eggyhsh gia ti pragma ?

Sas parakalw, mporei na mou apanthsei kapoios NON open source zealot? 
Einai sobaro to zhthma edw pera.

TIPOTA den einai aytapodeikto, kai to kako me emas einai oti exoume apla 
synh8isei toso poly to open source kai ta opoia pleonekthmata dinei se 
mas proswpika, pou teinoume na proballoume ta "profanh" mas symperasmata 
opoudhpote, xwris kammia isxyrh logikh bash. PROSOXH, de lew oti den 
yparxei, lew oti emeis den ka8omaste na psaksoume na th broume.


>> Oson afora ta zhthmata antagwnismou :
>>
>> 1) Poia einai ayta ta zhthmata? Pws orizetai o a8emitos antagwnismos
>> (nomika)? Empiptei h symfwnia s'ayth thn kathgoria? Giati? Pws orizetai
>> to "dhmosio symferon"?
>>
>> 2) Exoume nomika to dikaiwma na prosballoume th symfwnia? Me ti bash?
>> Exoume ennomo symferon na to kanoyme? (emperistatwmenes nomika apopseis,
>> ktl ktl ktl).
>>
>> 3) An thn exoume, poio dromo prepei na akolou8hsoume?
>>     
>
> Evloga erwthmata alla den mporoun na syzhtithoun se public list gia
> eynohtous logous, den xreiazetai na kserei olos o kosmos thn
> yperaspistikh mas grammh/taktikh. Oso gia to an mporoume na
> prosvaloume th symfwnia profanws kai mporoume ws polites, toso se
> ethniko oso kai se evrwpaiko epipedo, mias kai h symfwnia afora to
> dhmosio.
>   


Prwta apo ola pisteyw oti h yperaspistikh mas grammh PREPEI na einai 
toso isxyrh, wste na mporei na syzhth8ei DHMOSIA - toulaxiston sto 
geniko ths plaisio - xwris na ti8etai se kindyno h efarmogh ths. Ean h 
taktikh mas kindyneyei apo th dhmosia syzhthsh, h th gnwsh ths apo ton 
"antipalo", tote poly apla exoume mia sa8rh kai anisxyrh taktikh, kai 
ara prepei na psaksoume na broume kapoia kalyterh. (proswpikh mou gnwmh 
panta).

Oso gia to kata poso mporoume na prosballoume th symfwnia, den einai 
ka8olou "profanws", kai apo th mikrh empeiria pou exw sxetika me analoga 
zhthmata, sou lew oti einai to prwto pragma poy 8a xtyphsoun - to an 
exoume to *ennomo symferon* na prosballoume th nomo8etikh praksh. Apo ta 
elaxista pou kserw epi tou 8ematos, den arkei na diafwnoume genikws kai 
aoristws me kati, prepei to kati na mas dhmiourgei *ylikh blabh* gia na 
stoixeio8eth8ei dikaiwma parembashs mas. Alliws 8a mporouse o Syllogos 
gia thn Prostasia ths Par8enias ths Kastorianhs Arkoudas na kleisei to 
biotopo ston opoio zeygarwnoun anekselegkta oi arkoudes epeidh diafwnei 
h8ika me tis sexoualikes sxeseis ths arkoudas prin to gamo.

H mhpws sou aresei h prooptikh na pame sta dikasthria, ta dikasthria na 
mas poune "den exete kan to dikaiwma na syzhthsete to zhthma", kai meta 
na pame sta eyrwpaika dikasthria kai na mas kleisoun thn porta legontas 
"den eimaste emeis armodioi na apofasisoume an exete to dikaiwma na 
syzhthsete to zhthma", kai na exoume parei to trito to makrytero xwris 
KAN na exei syzhth8ei h ousia tou zhthmatos?


>> Oson afora ton politiko xeirismo tou zhthmatos.
>>
>> H symfwnia proballetai ston poly kosmo, me elaxistes eksaireseis, ws mia
>> symfwnia h opoia proagei ton eksygxronismo kai thn xrhsh ths texnologias
>> sto dhmosio tomea. Ayto kata bash einai swsto. 40.000 neoi ypologistes
>> sthn dhmosia dioikhsh einai 40.000 neoi ypologistes sth dhmosia
>> dioikhsh,  kai ayto einai ofelos, anksarthtes leitourgikou systhmatos.
>>
>>     
>
> To thema einai oti oi 70.000 adeies xrhseis einai to main point kai oi
> ypologistes pane paketo me aytes. O eksygrwnismos den xreiazetai na
> exei ws timima ton eglovismo tou dhmosiou sta proionta mias
> sygekrimenhs etairias. Orizoume ton eksygronismo mesw twn yphresiwn
> tou dhmosiou kai ths poiothtas tous, oxi me to plhthos twn ypologistwn
> pou agorazoume. Poso mallon otan den exei ginei kamia meleth gia to
> pou xreiazontai aytoi oi ypologistes/adeies, poso tha einai telika to
> plhthos tous (h symvash leei "toulaxiston 70.000") klp.
>   


Ksereis pws *akougetai* ston poly kosmo ayto poy les? "Dhladh 
yposthrizeis oti DEN PREPEI na ependysoume se nees texnologies?" - ayto 
8a sou poyn. Mazi me to "Toulaxiston agorazoun 70000 ypologistes ekei 
poy prin den yphrxe kanenas, 8a eprepe na eisai xaroumenos". Kai mporei 
na exoun ki ena mikro dikio.

Oson afora to "timhma tou egklwbismou tou dhmosiou sta proionta mias 
sygkekrimenhs etairias". Egw ki esy to blepoume ws timhma, giati exoume 
ma8ei na skeftomaste me mia sygkekrimenh logikh. Eisai sigouros oti kai 
to dhmosio to blepei ws "egklwbismo pou afairei th dynatothta aksiologwn 
enallaktikwn epilogwn" kai oxi ws "synergasia me enan aksiopisto 
kataskeyasth poy 8a mas apodeysmeysei apo to kostos synthrhshs mias 
plh8wras eterogenwn systhmatwn, kai enopoihsh twn hlektronikwn mas 
ypodomwn katw apo mia eniaia platforma" ?

Giati de ftanei na milhseis sto ideologiko epipedo gia egklwbismo, 
prepei na mporeis kai na sthrikseis oti o egklwbismos einai ousiastika 
zhmiogonos sth sygkekrimenh periptwsh. Mporoume na to kanoume ayto me 
*aksiopista* stoixeia?



>> Antiti8emenoi sth symfwnia, mhpws 8a prepei na proseksoume na kanoume
>> apolyta kseka8arous tous logous tis anti8eshs mas? An peis oti
>> antit8iesai se mia symfwnia pou "proagei th xrhsh texnologias sto
>> dhmosio tomea", *fainetai* san na MHN proageis th xrhsh ths texnologias
>> sto dhmosio tomea. Pws 8a to apofygoume ayto?
>>     
>
> Kai pali h texnologia den taytizetai me ta proionta sygekrimenhs
> etairias oute kan me sygekrimena programmata, texnologia einai kai oi
> ypodomes broadband pou pane kata diaolou, texnologia einai (gia ton
> poly kosmo) kai to anyparkto ellhniko periexomeno apo plevras dhmosiou
> klp. Emeis milame gia yphresies kai ayto pou leme einai oti oi
> yphresies pou exoume ws polites ap' to kratos, theloume na plhroun
> kapoies proypotheseis, akrivws wste na einai dynath h peretairw
> texnologikh anaptyksh tous kai oxi o eglovismos tous se kleista
> programmata sygekrimenwn etairiwn kai kleista protypa. Ousiastika
> vgainoume poio mprwsta se ayto to thema legontas oti texnologikh
> anaptyksh einai dynath otan xrhsimopoiountai nees texnologies kai oi
> nees texnologies pleon anaptysontai se ellak kai se anoixta protypa,
> apo thn pagosmia koinwthta kai oxi sta stegana mias sygekrimenhs
> etairias. Den einai to epixeirhma mas oti apla goustaroume ellak sto
> dhmosio giati eimaste kolhmenoi me to ellak (tha sou poun ki aytoi oti
> emeis eimaste kolhmenoi me thn MS :P).
>   


Dhladh twra mou les oti o *monadikos* tomeas ston opoio anaptyssetai 
texnologia einai to open source movement?

Kai oti h paradosiakh biomhxania ypologistwn ksynei t'arxidia ths?

Pas kala?

Ki ante, pes oti pas. Prokeitai na to pistepsei kanenas?


>   
>> O polys kosmos den exei idea ti einai to open source, kai gia na to 8esw
>> kai eygenika, sta paparia tou kiolas. Mporoume na diatypwsoume tis
>> anti8eseis mas me tetoio tropo wste na fanoyn "piasarika" ta isxyra
>> shmeia ths epixeirhmatologia mas, xwris na kourazoume ton akroath mas,
>> kai xwris na fainomaste peri8wriakoi h outopistes oneiropoloi?
>>     
>
> Ena epixeirhma einai oti to ellak anaptysete se synergasia me megales
> etairies tou xwrou, opws h SUN, h IBM, h HP, h Oracle, h Google klp
> klp (ayto apantaei sto outopistes/oneiropoloi). Allo epixeirhma einai
> oti to ellak anaptysetai se synergasia me panepisthmia kai erevntika
> idrymata kai einai sthn aixmh ths texnologias (ayto sto piasarka).
> Allo epixeirhma einai oti to ellak proagei th diafaneia afou kseroume
> akrivws ton tropo pou leitourgei kai den kanei tou kefaliou tou (edw
> mporoume na parapempsoume kai se periptwseis pou h MS travage dedomena
> twn xrhstwn ths ena agnoia tous), einai parametropoihshmo (ara egyatai
> thn viosimothta twn sygekrimenwn programmatwn -den tha ta petaksoume
> meta apo 3 xronia na valoume ta kainouria- kai thn xrhstikothta tous),
> exei poly mhdeniko kostos apokthshs (den milame gia support giati
> mplekei -alla opws kai na xei support plhrwneis outws h allws-) klp.
> Ayta einai merika pou mou hrthan proxeira, an katsoume katw tha vroume
> arketa kai me poly kalyterh diatypwsh.
>   


AKRIBWS ayto prospa8w na ksekinhsw - to na mpoun sto trapezi pente 
pragmata, na te8oun sthn pragmatikh tous bash kai na doume pou xwlainoun 
kai pou einai isxyra ws epixeirhmata, XWRIS tis open source parwpides 
mas - giati aytes 8a mas fane sto telos, na to 8ymaste. Perissotero kalo 
8a kanoyme sthn eksaplwsh tou anoixtou logismikou an mporoume na doume 
to xwro ths plhroforikhs genikotera kai na mporoume na 8etoume KAI to 
kleisto logismiko sth 8esh pou tou aksizei KAI to anoixto logismiko sth 
8esh poy tou aksizei, gia na doume pws mporoume na pame to deytero ena 
bhma parapera apo kei poy brisketai shmera.

Giati alliws einai sa na leme oti oi typoi pou grafoun kleisto logismiko 
kai yposthrizoun thn *kleistothta* tou logismikoy kai ta kleista 
protypa, kai oi typoi poy pairnoun apofaseis kai dhmiourgoun politikes 
yper tou kleistou logismikou, einai tipote hli8ioi pou den kseroun ti 
tous ginetai.

Kai tote 8a to'xoume xasei to paixnidi ek twn proterwn.


>> H synergasia dhmosiou / epixeirhsewn entassetai poly kala sthn klassikh
>> neofileley8erh straghtikh poy akolou8ei h trexousa kybernhsh, xwris na
>> apotelei apokleistikothta ths. Einai mia strathgikh h opoia gia kapoious
>> exei kapoia isxyra shmeia, aneksarthta apo tis proswpikes h politikes
>> diafwnies tou ka8enos. Mporoume na diatypwsoume tis opoies diafwnies mas
>> MESA sta plaisia ayths ths logikhs, wste na ginoyn en dynamei dekta kai
>> apo tous idious tous ideologikous foreis ths?
>>     
>
> Allo h synergasia dhmosiou/epixeirhsewn (h opws alliws to lene -px.
> sympraksh dhmosiou/idiwtikou tomea) kai allo h eleytherh
> agora/antagwnismos. To prwto den einai aparaithta xarakthristiko twn
> neofileleytherwn kyvernhsewn, antitheta oi neofileleytheres
> kyvernhseis den theloun na exoun kamia sxesh me to dhmosio (oute kan
> to management, to opoio thewroun paremvatismo sthn agora), pistevoun
> oti sta plaisia ths eleytherhs agoras kai tou antagwnismou, tis
> yphresies tou dhmosiou tis analamvanoun apokeistika etairies oi opoies
> eitai plhrwnontai ap to kratos eitai oxi, kai oi opoies antagwnizontai
> h mia thn allh kai mesw aytou tou antagwnismou ayksanei h poiothta
> (exoume kai sthn ellada tetoies periptwseis, px. ta ktel tou Hrakleiou
> opou menw, einai idiwtika kai den pairnoun xrhmata ap' to kratos -to
> foithtiko eishtirio einai peripou 1eurw). Se ayto to skeptiko kolaei
> kai h symfwnia, ousiastika leei h kyvernhsh sthn MS, afou mporeis
> kanto. To mono to opoio mporoume se ayth th logikh na prosapsoume sth
> kyvernhsh, einai (ap' th stigmh pou plhrwnei to kratos se ayth th
> periptwsh), oti den ekane meleth sthn agora gia antistoixes
> antagwnistikes lyseis, ki oti ap' th stigmh pou yparxoun oi
> diagwnismoi (stous opoious ginetai ksexwristh meleth), protimhse aytou
> tou eidous th symvash h opoia den einai aparaithta symferousa gia to
> kratos (den periexei oikonomika stoixeia klp).
>   

Ara, an katalaba kala ayto poy les, einai oti mporoume na kathgorhsoume 
thn kybernhsh gia mwnopoliakes praktikes poy den eynooun ton 
antagwnismo. Opote 8a gyrisei xalarotata ki o alogoskoufhs kai 8a sou 
pei "poion antagwnismo? Ferton mou edw pera na ton eksetasw. Mporei h 
RedHat na kalypsei tis anagkes tou dhmosiou tomea ws antagwnisths ths 
Microsoft?"

Opote, prin pas na tou petakseis thn arloumpa, 8a prepei prwta na kaneis 
esy thn ereyna sou kai na bebaiw8eis oti h arloumpa stekei. Alliws apla 
8a ginoume rezili.