-> ÍÝåò ÄñÜóåéò " Åëåýèåñïõ Ëïãéóìéê ïý" (fwd)

[Theodore J. Soldatos]

zakinthinos at hellug.gr wrote:
>>-> ÍÝåò ÄñÜóåéò " Åëåýèåñïõ Ëïãéóìéê ïý" (fwd) 
>>Theodore J. Soldatos theodore at eexi.gr 
>>Thu Nov 14 09:48:09 2002 
> 
> 
>>An den papsei ayth h adraneia, den exei nohma. Ayth th stigmh o syllogos mas 
>>praktika apoteleitai apo to D.S. kai alla 4-5 atoma. Ti synergasia na kanoume? 
>>Poion na ekprosophsoume, tous eaytous mas ? Ti na tous prosferoume, thn 
>>vohtheia enos syllogou 10 atomon ?
> 
> 
>>Alla prepei kai alla melh tou syllogou na paroun 
>>protovoulies. To D.S. yparxei gia na kanei ta diadikastika kai na ekprosopei 
>>opou xreiazetai, oxi na epifortizetai me *oles* tis drasthriothtes tou 
> 
> syllogou.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Ti anagkes exei o sillogos apo ta meli tou ; As min ksexnoume oti se texniko
> epipedo o sillogos exei idi tous kaliterous admin stin ellada kai den 
> iparxoun kai polloi gnwstes - admin me gnoseis advanced unix administration (i 
> think :) .
> apo ekei kai pera omos den iparxei kai ena geniko plano me to ti xreiazetai na 
> ginei
> kai kat'epektasi oute kai dikaiomata prosvaseis se koinoxristous porous tou
> sillogou me apotelesma isos na exoume kai mi pliri ekmetalleusi toso ton 
> anthropinwn
> oso kai ton texnikwn porwn tou sillogou. episis den iparxoun odigies ilopoihshs 
> esto
> os geniki perigrafi. katalaveno oti prokeitai peri ethelontikis prosforas 

To provlhma den einai mono oi texnikes anages. Einai h lhpsh protovoulias. 
Poses fores den vgainei kapoios edo kai leei "re paidia, na kanoume to tade 
keimeno kai na to steiloume ekei", alla den kathetai na grapsei esto ena 
prosxedio gia na to syzhthsoume edo. H empeiria mou me to deltio typou einai 
xarakthristiko paradeigma: To teliko keimeno den eixe kai poly sxesh me to 
arxiko, giati me to pou egrapsa to prosxedio, arketoi asxolhthikane kai sto 
telos vghke kati pou nomizo oti aksize. Ekana oloklhra kommatia copy/paste apo 
mail pou stalthikane edo. An loipon opoios exei mia idea ksekinaei kai na thn 
efarmozei, akoma kai an den mporei na thn oloklhrosei monos tou, tha 
"sproksei" allous na vohthisoun.

> kai genikotera to OSS einai mia arketa eleutheri ideologia ostoso oi mi vathia 
> gnostes
> tou xorou isos distazoun na diatiposoun dikes tous protaseis i na zitisoun 
> pragmata 
> apo ton sillogo.

Ma giati na distazoun ? Den xreiazetai na eisai kernel hacker gia na exeis 
kales idees. Alloste o syllogos den exei mono texnikous stoxous, exei kai 
"politikous".

> 
> 2) tha ithela na se rotiso ean kai poioi dimosieusan to deltio tipou.

Ego ksero: To "Kerdos", to Netsperado (http://www.netsperado.gr) kai ena apo 
ta teleytaia prosxedia kapoios to esteile kai sto Indymedia. An kserei kanenas 
tipota allo (idiaitera apo eparxia opou den exoume amesh plhroforhsh) as to 
pei. H genikh entyposh pou exo einai oti mas geiosane kanonika.

> 
> 3) epikoinoniaka mesa pou elegxoume i mporoume na prospelasoume :
> linux.gr,linux-greek-users,hellug.gr, irc channel #linux at GRnet,
> parousiaseis se simfoitites sto panepistimio i se sinadelfous 
> stin douleia.
> 
> apo to parapano prokyptei oti vasiko meso einai to katoxiromeno
> linux.gr, ean diladi kapoios patisei linux.gr thelontas na mathi 
> kati gia linux stin ellada einai to proto pou tha dei.
> 
> ara to linux.gr einai i eikona mas kai prepei na einai up-to-date
> me analitikes leptomereies gia ton arxario. prosopika den pistevo
> oti ena atomo arkei gia auti tin douleia giati mporei na einai 
> apasxolimeno kai etsi kai alliws den mporei na kaliptei oles
> tis dianomes kai ola ta programmata. ara exoun alloi prosvasi
> oste na prosthetoun iliko ?

Zhthsan alloi prosvash ? Phge kapoios me kati etoimo na pei "oriste, valte 
ayto" ?

> 
> gia na exoume mia apli domi parexoume xoro web sto members.hellug.gr, 
> pame stin linux-greek-users kai zitame ethelontes pou eite exoun idi eite 
<snip>
> 
> sto members.hellug.gr/zakinthinos exo etoimo ena tetoio manual gia redhat 7.3
> pou sigoura den einai plires kai tin dedomeni stigmi den exo ton xrono 
> na to sintiriso perissotero. mporei ostoso eite na antigafei sto linux.gr
> eite na mpei link kai na leitourgisi os ena proto paradeigma.

Ok, epikoinonhse me ton webmaster kai zhta na mpei.

> 
> kata tin gnomi mou o sillogos paei arketa kala. aplos oti ginetai
> einai se ilektroniki morfi se lgu kai i18n kai gia auto den fenetai
> kapoia kinisi in real life. alloste prokeitai peri sillogou
> xristwn ilektronikvn ipologistwn kai oxi somatio gia ekdromes
> ara mallon se eksormiseis tha isteroume ligo.

Nai, alla san syllogos kanoume poly liga gia tous stoxous mas pou einai h 
proothish tou Linux. H toulaxiston, ta kanoume monopleyra, dinoume poly varos 
sto texniko kommati (pou einai to pio endiaferon) kai ligo varos sto politiko 
(pou eidika sthn Ellada prosferei tis megalyteres apogohteyseis).

> 
> tora kapoies aities tou giati den exoume kai toso megali
> apixisi... :)
> 
> ean milame gia draseis pou tha mas voithousan na plisiasoume
> to euri koino pou den exei eidikes gnoseis nomizv oti exontas apenanti
> mas mia etairia me disekatommiria dollaria se energhtiko kefalaio
> pou elegxei ton periodiko tipo den nomizo oti mporousame na apofigoume
> tin itta 50 - 0 :) . den katakrino ta installfest alla mallon einai
> pio eukolo na piasoume kosmo mesa apo to linux.gr, linux-greek-users
> kai na epikoinonisoume mazika.

Sto linux.gr tha erthei mono opoios hdh endiaferetai gia to Linux. To thema 
einai na kanoume na endiaferthei kosmos o opoios apo monos tou apokleietai na 
erthei ekei.

<snip klise :-)>

> 
> mporei ta parapano na akougontai klise alla ekei paei to thema
> ean anarotithoume giati den akougomaste. den mporoume na leme
> oti den pame kala epeidi exoume apenanti mas ena terastio,
> grafeiokratiko, diskinito, mi apodotiko kai mi aksiokratiko
> kratos. kapoia meli tou sillogou isos na exoun apogoiteuthi. 
> i pleionothta ton (pollwn) dimosiwn ipallilon sigoura 
> den endiaferetai na gnorisei to linux , to na diatirithoun
> ta win98-ie-access san terminal se mia postgres-apache-odbc
> einai gia mas mia kali lisi.

Den me peirazei oti den exoume valei Linux se oles tis dhmosies yphresies, me 
peirazei pou oi prospatheies mas pros ta ekei den einai arketes. Einai gegonos 
oti den einai eykolo na asxoleisai synexeia me ton syllogo. Alloi doulevoun 
kai exoun oikogeneia, alloi einai foithtes kai prepei na asxolhthoun me th 
sxolh kai thn foithikh zoh :-). Opote, otan to varos peftei se liga atoma, to 
apotelesma einai "ligo", mia kai, afou enas anthropos asxolhthei gia 1-2 
evdomades, kapou kourazetai. An 120 atoma pairnane protovoulies, 2-3 atoma thn 
fora, tha yphrxe mia synexhs kinhsh, me ta kata kairous D.S. na diathroune thn 
synexeia. Exo perasei apo oles aytes tis faseis kai katalavaino giati yparxoun 
aytes oi periodoi adraneias pou enalassontai me periodous kinhtikothtas. 
Yphrksa idrytiko melos, meta proedros, meta anenergo melos kai meta, otan eida 
na mhn vriskontai arketoi ypopshfioi gia D.S., syneidhtopoihsa oti san melos 
exo kapoies ypoxreoseis apenanti ston syllogo. Den xreiazetai ola ta melh na 
skizontai synexos gia ton syllogo, ligo na asxolhthei o kathenas, arkei. Einai 
apolyta apodekto na asxoleitai ena atomo entona me ton syllogo gia 1 mhna as 
poume kai meta na mhn kanei tipota gia ena eksamhno, alla na ginetai melos kai 
meta apo dyo-tria xronia na mhn exei pei mia leksh, poio to nohma ?


> 
> as min ksexname oti to linux den apotelei epilogi (akomi) gia ton xristi
> pou den theli/mporei na diavazei kathe mera i na skeftetai liseis  
> ara ean mpei auti tin stigmi pantou linux on the desktop tha eprepe
> na iparxoun admin pantou (pou sto dimosio den iparxoun) i allios
> tha einai sketi katastrofi afou oi xristes toso se dimosio (perissotero) 
> oso kai se idiotiko tomea molis kai meta vias mporoun na xeiristoun 
> windows.     
> vasika ean theloume linux on the desktop sto dimosio prepei na eimaste sigouroi
> oti tha ginei prosektikos sxediasmos oste se oles tis periptoseis na min na 
> iparxi anagki gia paremvasi xristi giati poli apla auti den tha iparxei.
> o xristis prepei na vlepei ena open-office perivallon kai telos.
> 
> to linux tairiazei kalitera san lisi sta kentrika tis genikis grammateias
> pliroforiakwn sistimatwn tou ipourgeiou oikonomikwn opou p.x enas analitis
> ekei den thelei na ksanadei ta crash twn NT + MS SQL SERVER i tha theli
> to SQL pou tha grafei na ipakoui sta standard kai na min allazei kathe treis
> kai ligo i na prepei na kanei ta trela kolpa gia na epitixei kati
> pio ekseligmeno.
> 
> ara oi efories tha diatirisoun ta win98 kai emeis tha prepei na
> plisiasoume auton ton anthropo kai na tou zitisoume na kanei  
> mia thetiki gnomodotisi gia to linux (vevea kapou ekei tha sinantisoume
> kai thn MS na zitaei to idio gia tous win based servers tis). ean 
> theloume na mas akousoun prepei na milisoume se autous
> pou (as elpisoume) idi kseroun ti kanei mia vasi dedomenwn+web interface
> oste xtizontas pano se auto na tous peisoume oti to linux prosferei tis 
> kaliteres liseis sto thema auto.

Oraia. Ola ta parapano, pos tha ta efarmosoume ? Se poion tha milhsoume ? Ti 
tha tou poume ? Kapoios prepei na ta ksekinhsei ayta, ekei einai to thema. Oi 
idees apo mones tous den arkoun. Ego prosopika ksekinhsa ena-dyo pragmata. 
Kapoia stigmh kourazomai, exo alla pragmata na kano, adrano. To logiko tha 
htan h epomenh protovoulia na erthei apo kapoion allon, etsi den einai ? Ekei 
nomizo oti kollaei o syllogos. Vgale kai ta atoma pou exoun analavei synexeis 
ypoxreoseis (p.x. admins), oi ypoloipoi den tha eprepe na kanoun kati ? 
Anarotiemai, aytoi pou plhrosane tora prosfata me thn diagrafh melon gia na 
parameinoun melh, giati paramenoun melh ? Giati na eisai se enan syllogo an 
den kaneis kati gi ayton ?

> 
> dinatos einai o sillogos sto oti apo texnologiki skopia 
> exei ta kalitera sistimata ipologistwn - epoikoinwnias sto net me
>  tis poio apodotikes ipiresies  (web, web space gia arthografous, 
> email, mailing lists), sto oti mporoume na plisiasoume anthropous tou xorou  
> (sinadeflous stin douleia , simfoitites sto panepistimio) kai na tous 
> eksigisoume se parousiaseis giati i tirisi universal standards (ieee, ansi) 
> kai i xrisi logismikwn pou ta ipostirizoun dini pleonektimata opos
> taxitita, meiosi xronou ekmathisis kai ekmathisi mono mia fora, sosto sxediasmo
> (p.x error recovery). Ean gini opotedipote mia enstasi se mia epitropi

Ayto nomizo oti to kanoume oloi. Yparxei polys kosmos pou proothei to linux se 
etaireies, xoris na exei kamia sxesh me ton syllogo (kai oute protithetai na 
exei).

> krisis diagonismou i MS diskola mporei na peisei oti ipakouei akrivos sta
> standards i oti ta exei ilopoihsei sosta kai apodotika. ean mas xtipisi
> legontas oti den exei support to linux mporoume panta na ipodeiksoume
> sto dimosio na anazitisei ipostiriksi apo tha dika tou kratika 
> panepistimia.
> 
> 
> as prospathisoume na ekmetalleutoume perissotero tis ilektronikes
> "idioktisies" tou sillogou.
>     
> giorgos tsimaras 

Nomizo oti den einai mono ekei to provlhma, opos eipa kai parapano shmasia 
exei h energopoihsh ton anthropon tou syllogou.

T.


-- 
Theodore=J.=Soldatos=_\_======================================================
=  theodore at eexi.gr =_/_====== "Greed is never good" - Linus Torvalds ========
=   bafh at hellug.gr  =_\_============ http://w4u.eexi.gr/~theodore ============
=   tsol at space.gr   =_/_==================== Space Hellas ====================