O mpampas trela8hke! ;-)

[Christos Ricudis]

Hello Linux-greek-users!

  On 24 Jan 00, Linux-greek-users wrote to Christos Ricudis with subject "Re: O
mpampas trela8hke!  ;-)":

 >> H yparksh istorias se ena leitourgiko systhma, toy prosdidei
 >> dyo xarakthristika (stoys developers tou perissotero para sto 
 >> idio to leitoyrgiko). Prwton, th dynatothta na antloun didagmata 
 >> kai empeiria apo aythn, kai deyteron na th sebontai. To klassiko 
 >> paradeigma einai to NetBSD,

 L> m'ayth th logikh KAI lambanontas yp'opsin osa les parakatw gia
 L> ton kernel mas les oti *shmera* to linux den to sebetai kanenas 
 L> kai ara exei parei ('i 8a parei se ligo) to dromo ths katastrofhs.

Den eipa oti "den to sebetai kanenas", kai oudepote fysika yponohsa oti "exei
parei / 8a parei se ligo to dromo ths katastrofhs". Stamata na moy bazeis logia
sto stoma. Eytyxws yparxoyn polloi developers poy to sebontai, kai eytyxws
aytoi einai h pleiopshfia twn maintainers tou. 

 L> Oxi... oles aytes oi idees gia ton kernel pou les einai apla
 L> prwtoporiakes kai kala kanoun kai anaferontai sthn kernel-list giati
 L> anaba8mizoun to linux. To oti ena OS exei mia sygkekrimenh istoria 
 L> den shmainei oti prepei na symfwnei 'i na symbadizei m'aythn 
 L> mexri katastrofhs. 

Aplws skepsou thn periptwsh na kanoyme implement to ka8e proposal toy ka8e 
asxetou sto Linux. Ka8e 2 meres kapoios bgainei sthn linux-kernel-list 
kai proteinei to makry toy kai to konto toy. Oxi, ayto den einai proodos 
oute anaba8mish, ayto einai kakoh8es karkinwma toy kerneloeidous xitwna. An DEN
gnwrizeis apo OS design, kai an DEN exeis ma8ei ta didagmata poy 8a eprepe na
se exoyn ma8ei trianta xronia OS design/development, boulwsto kai katse st'ayga
sou. 

Prosekse, den eimai kata ths proodou. Eimai kata ths alogisths proodou. Den
eimai kata twn newterismwn, arkei na eksyphretoyn kapoio ousiastiko skopo, kai
na exoyn perasei toylaxiston apo mia diadikasia peer-review poy sygkentrwnei 
thn gnwsh kai thn krish atomwn poy gnwrizoun isws kalytera ta tradeoffs kai 
ta problhmata poy isws dhmioyrghsei o X newterismos, kai oxi epeidh aplws etsi
katebhke se kapoio malaka sth SuSE na moy allaksei th shmasia twn runlevels
xwris APOLYTWS KANENA logo kai skopo ektos isws apo to na me kanei na xasw
to mpousoula. Oxi, den einai proodos ayto, katinia sketh einai. 

 L> Oi kairoi allazoun
 L> opws epishs oi apaithseis kai oi synh8eies. Allo 8ema ean *esena*
 L> den s'aresoun aytes oi allages (kaneis bebaia den se rwthse :>

8a eprepe omws. Giati egw an mh ti allo eimai to koroido (diabaze system
administrator) poy 8a prepei na katsei na faei sth mapa kai na ma8ei tis
*adikaiologhtes* idiotropies toy ka8e UNIX vendor. (katalabe pote kanenas poios
einai o standard tropos na allakseis to network configuration enos SVR4
systhmatos?)

 L> {gia dikh sou eykolia sou lew oti yparxei ena copy tou Prwtou
 L> Unix sthn Bell ;}

 >> bgazoume sthn 2.3.55.12" h "Giati den allazoume ta semantics toy 
 >> UNIX file system wste na epitrepsoyme circular references?" (opws
 >> prosfata diabasa me tromo na proteinei kapoois sthn linux-kernel-
 >> list). Kaneis ekei den

 L> opws eipa parapanw den shmainei oti epeidh o pappous phgaine sthn
 L> ekklhsia ka8e kyriakh me olh thn oikogeneia synepagetai oti kai o 
 L> eggonos raver :) 8a phgainei 'h oti prepei na phgainei. 
 L> Parol'ayta paramenei eggonos!

Synepagetai omws oti opote phgainei 8a prepei toylaxiston na mhn akouei rave
mesa sthn ekklhsia. H, gia na to kanei, 8a prepei na exei kapoio shmantikoterh
dikaiologia apo to "etsi moy aresei" kai na onomazei to "etsi moy aresei" toy
PROODO kai EKSELIKSH. 

 >> To Slackware den kserei poion exei patera. H teleytaia version
 >> poy koitaksa
 L>                                    ^^^^^^
 >> emoiaze me ena mpastardema SVR4 kai BSD oson afora to userland.
 >> To redhat einai akoma xeirotero - to redhat-specific 
 >> documentation einai anyparkto
 L> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 >> (dokimase pote kaneis na psaksei na brei documentation gia
 >> kapoion apo toys ekatontades  newterismous sto configuration 
 >> toy?). To SuSe kapws phge na dior8wsei ta pragmata, mexri poy se 
 >> kapoion hli8io hr8e h faeinh idea na allaksei th shmasia twn 
 >> runlevels (!!!!).
 L> ^^^^^^^^^

 L> gia oles tis ypogramismenes lekseis exw na sou pw to ekshs: Paw
 L> stoixhma oti otan prwto phres to Linux mexri shmera perimeneis oti ta
 L> panta 8a minoun idia. Oi epoxes allazoun.

Pros to xeirotero. Kapote agorazes mia bida, kai sou edinan mazi treis tomoys
me plhrh texnikh perigrafh ths bidas, schematics, programming information, ktl
ktl ktl. Shmera an agoraseis kati kai sou dwsoun pentaselido manual, 8ewreisai
tyxeros. 

Oxi, den perimenw ta panta na meinoyn idia, alla APAITW an allaksoyn na
allaksoun pros to kalytero. To na ftiaxneis ena distribution gemato localisms
kai na MHN kaneis document POY8ENA ayta ta localisms (redhat), DEN einai allagh
pros to kalytero, parto xampari. 

 >> Den exw pleon kammia elpida oti opoiodhpote apo ta alla
 >> distributions ftiaxthke apo an8rwpous me EMPEIRIA sto unix 
 >> system administration poy KSEROYN posh shmasia exei na briskeis 
 >> kati ekei poy exeis synh8isei na brisketai. Tetoia pragmata 8a 
 >> htan aparadekta sto BSD - kai dystyxws

 L> sto BSD. oxi sto UNIX giati Unix den einai BSD mono. 

Krima gia olous mas :>

 L> kai to unix den einai 'h den prepei na einai mono gia admins ;)

Entaksei, tote na fygoyme, na dwsoume stous users to root password, kai na toys
afhsoume na ta bgaloyn pera monoi toys. Kanto gia peirama se ena systhma mia
mera, kai des pws 8a exei ginei meta apo ena mhna. (Eidika an anamesa stous
users brisketai kapoios alloparmenos linuxas poy nomizei oti epeidh ebale ena
Redhat sto PCi toy egine UNIX system administrator. To exw dei to ergo APEIRES
fores). 

 >> oi commercial unix vendors den pane ka8olou pisw sth malakia
 >> poy tous dernei. To pws na ftiakseis ena swsto, consistent kai 
 >> orthogonal unix system, den
 L>                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 L> den shmainei oti gia na eisai unix prepei na eisai *omoios* me ta
 L> alla unix giati tote den yparxei anaptyksh alla ypoba8mish kai 
 L> mh sebasmos sto unix-clone pou eftiakses. 

Nai, shmainei oti gia na eisai unix prepei na eisai *omoios* me ta alla
unices, giati alliws den eisai unix, eisai 8yrothlefwno. To unix (me thn eyreia
ennoia poy perilambanei kai ta free clones) apoteleitai apo ena 
synolo (mh safws ka8orismenwn, to paradexomai) pragmatwn poy to kanoyn 
ayto poy einai. Exeis dei pote to Plan 9? Egw den to 8ewrw unix. unix-derived,
nai. unix-descendant, nai. unix omws oxi. (mh me parekshgeis - to Plan 9 einai
apo ta pio thoughtful kai well-designed leitourgika poy exw dei. Aplws DEN
EINAI UNIX gamwto!). 

 L> Mia pou anafer8hkes gia userland klp exw kapoies erwthseis
 L> na sou kanw giati egw o amoiros den mporw na tis apanthsw ;)

 L> 1)Den kserw posa xronia asxoleisai me unix alla tis entoles[1] ls,
 L> grep, rm, klp klp pou xrhsimopoiieis ka8e mera sto linux pou tis ema8es?

Se ena SunOS 4.1 kai se ena SCO Xenix, kapoy to '87 me '88. Kai to gegonos oti
MPORW na doulepsw se ena systhma XWRIS GNU tools (an kai me perissoterh
dyskampsia apo osh mporousa kapote, to paradexomai), anti8eta apo kapoia
shmerinh genia orismenwn Linuxo8remmenwn administrators poy den kseroyn poy
tous pane ta 4 molis fygei to bash katw apo ta podia toys, den to apokalw
opis8odromikothta, anti8etws isws apo to ti 8a ekanes esy :>. 

 L> 2)Ean bgei ayrio to NetBSD 1.5 kai dhlwsei oti allazei to
 L> directrory twn users apo /home/users se /house/users as 
 L> poume (entaksei einai liges oi pi8anothtes [2] alla des 
 L> to 8ewrhtika) esy 8a peis OXI esy den eisai to NetBSD
 L> alla ena kainourio leitourgiko pou den to iksera pote! 

An oi allages einai sxetika mikres, kai exoyn kapoio sobaro logo poy exoyn
ginei, 8a to dextw. Akoma kai megales allages dexomai, otan einai DOCUMENTED
kai RATIONALIZED. Alla, oxi, de moy arese otan h Sun apofasise en eidi papa oti
to /home prepei na brisketai katw apo ton elegxo toy automounter. (akoma einai
to prwto pragma poy kleinw otan egka8istw ena solaris. Oxi oti de mou aresei o
automounter, aplws de moy aresei na moy ton bazoyn me to etsi 8elw sth myth). 

 L>   As to ma8w loipon ap'thn arxh.? Mipws ayto ekanes otan prwto
 L> phres to Linux?? Ema8es ksana ola ta xarakthristika?

E loipon nai, ayto ekana, kai ayto sxedon panta anagkazomai na kanw mexri na 
anakalypsw pws - kai to shmantikotero, GIATI - einai domhmenh ka8e kainouria
linux distribution poy ksefytrwnei sa manitari. 

 L> Telos na pw kai kati kai opoios to katalabei to katalabe.
 L> Dystyxws/eytyxws gia thn periptwsh tou Linux den mporeis 
 L> na peis oti exei 'h den exei istoria - einai 'h den einai 
 L> kainourgio. Otan kapoios shmantikos an8rwpos (opws twra o
 L> linUS [3]) yposthrizei thn mia mono apopsh to kanei 
 L> epeithdes ki as kserei oti den einai alh8eia. Yparxoun
 L> polloi logoi alla opws panta o shmantikoteros einai to xrhma.

Nai, ksereis kai gw eimai grammenos sto mis8ologio tou Unix Version 7 Advocacy
Organization, kai me PLHRWNOYN gia na 8abw thn EKSELIKSH kai thn PROODO toy
Linux. Ti, gia thn psyxh ths manas moy ta grafw tosa katebata? 

--
Christos Ricudis
Prof:    So the American government went to IBM to come up with a data
         encryption standard and they came up with ...
Student: EBCDIC!
--
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